How is the Kurdish Minority Being Treated in Syria Under Abu Mohammad al-Jolani and Hayat Tahrir al-Sham Transcript

Disclaimer: This transcript is an edited version version of a transcript created using AI technology and may not reflect 100% accuracy.

The video can be found here.

Sarah: Good afternoon, and welcome to another topical, and timely EMET webinar. Beginning on December 8^th, we watched in astonishment as rebel forces overran much of Syria. The forces were led by Mohammad al-Jolani, who has now renamed himself Ahmed al-Sharaa. Previously, the Shiite crescent ran from Tehran through Baghdad, Damascus, and Beirut. Some of us are relieved that there is now a gaping hole in the middle of this Shiite crescent and the brutal grip of Bashar al-Assad has finally been loosened.

That said, Mohammad al-Jolani, leader of Hay’at Tahrir al-Sham (HTS) has proven he is not exactly a Jeffersonian Democrat. His roots are in Jabhat al-Nusra, an al-Qaeda affiliate tied to ISIS. Al-Jolani has powerful ties to Turkish President Recep Tayyip Erdoğan. Erdoğan’s ambition is to resurrect the Ottoman Empire to what it was at its peak during the 15^th and the 16^th centuries.

Erdoğan has called Israel “a terror state committing genocide” and has backed Hamas. He plans to transform Syria into a Sunni Islamist stronghold. Turkish sources report that the Turks have trained and armed HTS rebels for more than a decade. Erdoğan directs his particular antipathy towards the Kurds. Those same Kurds fought valiantly alongside the United States against ISIS.

Here to discuss the Kurdish situation in Syria, is Diliman Abdulkader. Diliman is a great friend who once worked for EMET as director of our Kurdish project. He is now the founder of American Friends of Kurdistan (AFK). AFK is an advocacy and educational organization established to strengthen, protect, and promote US-Kurdish ties. AFK supports policies that advance the national security interests of Americans, Kurds, and our other allies.

Diliman has extensive expertise in foreign policy and national security. He invests much of his time educating Capitol Hill lawmakers and their staffers on the case for the Kurds. Diliman received his master’s in International Peace and Conflict Resolution at the American University in Washington, DC.

Diliman, please begin by describing the threat HTS poses to the Kurds in Syria.

Diliman Abdulkader: Wonderful. Thank you, Sarah. I want to thank you and your team for setting up this timely webinar. EMET has been doing great work in DC for a very long time. I was proud to have been an EMET colleague and to have been part of the work we did regarding Kurdish issues.

The situation in northeast Syria continues to be dire. This is especially true as regards the Kurds. The Kurds are under constant threat. Turkey was already a danger to them. Now they are also threatened by Syria’s new HTS-led government in Damascus. HTS is essentially al-Qaeda, backed by Turkey.

Turkey, Turkish-backed rebels, terrorist organizations, and Islamists are attacking the Kurds in northeast Syria as we speak. At the same time, Al-Jolani’s Damascus government is demanding that all groups in Syria lay down their arms. According to Al-Jolani, only the state has the right to have weapons. Jolani is effectively demanding the Kurds lay down their arms and submit to Damascus. Damascus is backed by Turkey.

So, the Kurds have been cornered if you will. That said, they should realize that they do have leverage in Syria. They have a lot of things going for them to use in negotiations in Damascus when that time comes. It is also in Turkey’s interest to keep the northeast region of Syria stable.

Jolani’s talking points are structured for Western consumption. This is evidenced by his latest interviews with the BBC, CNN, and Saudi Arabian outlets. His talking points are designed to appeal to the West. Through his interviews, Jolani is trying to appease officials in Israel and in Washington. He is trying to get himself removed from the terror list and to reduce the threats to his government. He has already succeeded in having the bounty on his head removed by the US State Department.

There is now a concerted effort to normalize HTS, the new face of Damascus. Turkey is leading the rush to accomplish this and it is happening too fast. The West is rushing to remove HTS from terror lists and to start diplomatic relations with Damascus. At the end of the day, when the dust has settled, the consequences will be felt by the Kurds in northeast Syria.

Sarah: How much land does Turkey control in northern Syria?

Diliman: Turkey controls different areas in Syria. Afrin is the first. If you recall, the Turks invaded northern Syria in 2018. Afrin is predominantly and historically a Kurdish-dominated, and Kurdish-populated area. Now it has been Arabized and Turkified. The Kurds there have been occupied by Turkey.

In 2019, the Turks established the so-called 30-kilometer safe zone. They can essentially start another invasion by expanding that safe zone. This would basically mimic what they did in Afrin. Turkey wants to control a large swath of land along their border with Syria. They want to dismantle what the Kurds have established.

Another option for them, is to have the Kurds forced to lay down their weapons. This is the reason Turkey wants to recognize the Damascus government so quickly and they are well on their way to succeeding in this. It is all aimed at the Kurds.

There is also a Turkish presence in Idlib province, the birthplace of HTS. Remember, we used to say that the largest al-Qaeda hub in the world is in Syria. This hub is in the Idlib province and it is under HTS control. Their forces are the same ones that conquered Damascus. The Turkish government has basically controlled these forces for over a decade. Not much has changed although we don’t know the exact makeup of HTS today. HTS today, includes foreign fighters whose human rights records are not known.

So, Turkey has invested a great deal in Syria with the objective of ensuring the Kurds do not gain autonomy.

Sarah: What’s the nature of the relationship between Recep Tayyip Erdoğan and Mohammad al-Jolani?

Diliman: As I mentioned, there is a decades-long relationship between HTS in Idlib province, and Turkey. HTS is gaining territory in Syria on Turkey’s behalf. Turkey has always protected this Islamist group. Turkey prefers using Islamic terrorists on the ground, rather than its own Turkish forces.

Although they come in from the air at times, the Turks typically do not deploy their own military on the ground unless it is against the Kurds. They have made use of HTS and other Islamic radical groups in northeast Syria. They also deployed their own forces against the Kurds there.

There is a relationship between Ankara and Jolani’s HTS as a whole. Turkey’s government was the first to visit Damascus when Bashar al-Assad fell. They actually rushed to be the first to recognize Syria’s new government and they quickly are pushing everyone else to do the same.

Sarah: There are many oil deposits in Kurdish controlled areas in Syria. How likely is it that Mohammad al-Jolani or Recep Tayyip Erdoğan have their sights on this oil? How can the Kurds leverage this?

Diliman: That is an excellent question. Turkey does not have natural oil and gas resources and relies on neighbors like Iraq for them. They have not been able to benefit from the resources in Syria because the Kurds control nearly 40% of territory in northeast Syria. The Kurds control access to the Euphrates River and the Euphrates Valley. They also control nearly 100% of the oil; a large portion of the gas reserves; wheat production, and other natural resources.

This means the Kurds have a great deal of leverage they can use in negotiations with Damascus. Damascus does not have a functioning economy. It was already failing under Assad, and now there is no infrastructure in Syria. The country does not have economic ties with any other country and they are reliant on the Kurds. Damascus needs the Kurds more than the Kurds need Damascus.

Turkey also needs the oil and other resources in northeast Syria. Obtaining control over these resources is part of Ankara’s neo-Ottomanism expansion agenda. They want the resources. To achieve their objective, they are rushing for economic ties between Damascus and Ankara and working to quickly dismantle Kurdish control in northeast Syria. Turkey’s goal is to ensure the Kurds in Syria are not able to create an autonomous region similar to what the Iraqi Kurds have in the Kurdistan region.

Sarah: Right now, there are approximately 2,000 US troops based around the Kurdish areas of Syria. In about 18 days, President-elect Donald Trump will become president. How likely is it that US troops will remain there after he is inaugurated?

Diliman: That is the million-dollar question. I believe we had 2,500 forces in Syria when President Trump took office in 2016. He withdrew some of those forces leaving only 900 of them in place. A few weeks before Assad’s fall, the Pentagon announced that the numbers have actually increased to the 2,000 you mentioned.

We know Americans do not have the appetite to be involved in another war, but our presence in Syria is not simply about boots on the ground. The United States is a global superpower with allies around the world. If the US is not in Syria, someone else will fill in that vacuum. US boots on the ground in Syria are there to train, equip, and advise. They are also there to counter ISIS. That mission has not changed.

The ISIS caliphate may have been defeated, but their ideology persists. There are terrorists on the ground in Syria, and in Iraq and the fight against ISIS is ongoing. An ISIS follower just killed 10 Americans and injured 30 in New Orleans. The threat is still there. ISIS is still there. That is why it is so important for the US to remain in Syria. Together with the Kurds, they are fighting against radicalism.

There are 10,000 ISIS fighters in prisons in northeast Syria and they are under Kurdish control. Over 50,000 of their family members remain in camps there as well. If Turkey continues its military invasions against the Kurds, the current situation could become very unstable very quickly. If the Turkish attacks continue, the Kurds would be forced to suspend the fight against ISIS and to focus on defending themselves against Turkey.

So, the threat of ISIS is still there and the US presence in Syria is still very important. I hope President Trump sees this and does not remove US troops from Syria. We do not want a repeat of what we saw back in 2019, when he removed over half of the US troops from Syria.

Sarah: How likely is it that Hay’at Tahrir al-Sham (HTS) will open the prisons and release the ISIS fighters?

Diliman: It is unlikely that HTS will release all the ISIS fighters from the prisons. The Kurds are actually keeping the potential opposition to HTS in prison. There are different variations of radical and Islamist groups in Syria. ISIS is one group that HTS would rather see remain in prison. ISIS may well obstruct HTS’ attempts to consolidate control over Syria. The Kurds are keeping Syria safe from ISIS and this provides them another point of leverage.

Turkey needs to understand that the Kurds are not a threat and actually provide a benefit for them as regards ISIS. In the past, Turkey has threatened the Kurds, but has not threatened ISIS. Turkey has aided ISIS but has squashed, invaded and slaughtered the Kurds. The hypocrisy coming from Ankara is astounding. I think it is time that both Damascus and Ankara recognize the Kurds are actually our friends. They are not a threat, and we should grant them the autonomy they have been fighting for.

Sarah: So, Syria is made up of many different ethnic enclaves. How likely is it that Syria will remain intact and that will not just split into ethnic enclaves?

Diliman: The answer depends on how this new government is formed and how they decide to govern going forward. So far, we know HTS wants Sharia law installed across the country. There is a problem with that. Many minorities in Syria do not want to live under Sharia law. Assad was Alawite. He was part of the minority that led a Sunni Muslim majority country. The other minorities in Syria include the Druze in the south of the country and Christians across the country. As we discussed, the Kurds are located primarily in northeast Syria. None of these minorities want to live under Sharia law. So, there is an immediate conflict as regards the implementation of Sharia law in Syria.

HTS and Jolani have said the next elections will take place four years from now. That is another problem. Nobody elected HTS. There have been no free and fair elections. However, Jolani and his HTS are already implementing laws and creating institutions. They are determining the infrastructure of the education system, the curriculum for the children, and the so-called constitution of the country. They are doing this through the lens of Sharia law and there is a problem with that.

Jolani has also called for minorities and others outside of the military to lay down their arms. He has determined that Damascus is the location of the central government yet he has not guaranteed minority rights. This presents a problem. If the Christians, for example, lay down their arms, there is no one to guarantee their safety. This is the Middle East and we have seen what happens to Christians in the Middle East. Their numbers have decreased dramatically across the Middle East, not just in Syria. The Alawites will likely also be targeted because they are considered part of the Assad regime. There is also no one guaranteeing safety for the Druze in the South and the Kurds in the northeast.

I think human rights are a huge concern. Jolani has not yet proven anything in this regard. That is why we should not rush into normalization with Damascus. There should be no rush to normalize and disarm minorities. We do not even know who will comprise the new military.

There are countless videos being posted across social media platforms in Syria. They are depicting non-Syrian people in Syria. We are seeing folk from Central Asia and East Asia there. They are part of the new Syrian military and we have no idea what type human rights records they hold. We have no idea how they feel about Christians, Druze or Kurds. Minorities cannot be disarmed before Syria is built. The Syrian military must be built and vetted before minorities can feel confident and comfortable in that country.

Sarah: Assuming that Erdoğan or Mohammad al-Jolani want to create a Sunni caliphate, do you think some of the other Sunni nations, such as Saudi Arabia, might want a piece of Syria?

Diliman: I think Jolani has tried to appease the Gulf States, including Saudi Arabia. He appears to be holding Iran accountable. Of course, that is good for Israel and for the Kurds. It is good for their whole campaign in the Shia Crescent. However, there is also another side to it.

Al-Jolani is trying to say all the nice things we want to hear. He is saying what Saudi Arabia, the UAE and the other Gulf States want to hear. His talking points are directed not only at the West, but at the Gulf states as well. At the same time, Jolani is ignoring Israel. He is not bringing Israel into the conversation. If you watch his interviews, you will see that he is sending an indirect threat to Israel. So, we have to be careful about taking everything Jolani says at face value. We have to let the situation in Syria play out. It is still very early.

We do know Julani wants to create a Sunni dominated country led by Sharia law. Syria is a Sunni majority country, but that does not mean it has to be led by Sharia law. Sunni Muslim do not equal Sharia law. I think there should be free and fair elections in Syria. It should be a democratic, decentralized state which guarantees full rights for minorities. A Sunni majority does not automatically justify creating a caliphate under a Sharia law. If Julani follows this path, I think Syria will remain in this civil war phase. This is especially true if he waits four years to call an election.

Sarah: Joshua Landis, a Middle East expert at Oklahoma University, published an article noting that Syrian textbooks are being Islamified. Is that an indicator of things to come?

Diliman: Absolutely. The current government is supposed to be a caretaker, or transitional government. Once elected, the official government of the new Syria should handle textbooks and school curriculums. Removing Assad’s influence is fine. Obviously, it is not controversial to remove glorification of Assad from the school curriculum. That said, it should not be replaced with Islamic teachings.

The new head of women’s affairs has already defined the rights that women should have in the new Syria. According to him, women should stay in the house and take care of their families and he will not accept opposing ideas about this. Jolani has put in place the exact person that he wants for that role. He is literally describing how he sees the future of Syria and it is a country governed by Sharia law.

HTS is not hiding their vision for Syria. We would be naïve to believe their talking points and assume there will be free and fair democratic elections in Syria. We should not be duped into believing that Syria will automatically have a great relationship with Israel, that the Kurds will be accepted and relations with other countries will be normalized.

The Syrian people must decide their own future. They should hold elections. They could even conduct a referendum on whether or not the majority of Syrians agree to implement Sharia law. HTS cannot just roll into Damascus and declare Sharia law to be the new law of the land. That would be a repeat of what Assad did. Assad’s word automatically became the law of the land. That type of autocratic rule should not be re-established in Syria.

Sarah: On Monday, Muhammad al-Jolani met with Kurdish and Christian groups and tried to establish diplomatic ties with them. Do you think it is just another example of Taqiyya, trying to fool the world? Do you think there might be some chance of diplomacy with the Kurds and Christians?

Diliman: They should absolutely engage in diplomacy with Damascus. The Christians especially, should engage with the current government. This is because their lives depend on it. They are a minority and they are not armed for the most part. Also, they are part of a group that has been targeted across the Middle East. So, engaging with HTS is 100% fine because it might help to secure their rights.

The Kurds have always maintained they want to engage with the Syrian government. Contrary to Ankara’s talking points, they are not separatists. I think the Kurds are smart to engage in talks with the interim government. This establishes them as a legitimate force in Syria. They have 100,000 plus US-trained and armed forces and they are going to be part of the conversation even though Turkey does not view them as legitimate.

Turkey is going to demand that the Kurds are not part of the conversation. They did this with the Kurds in Russia and Iran, and they kept the Kurds from the negotiating tables at Astana. I think that is their intention in Syria as well. That said, Jolani will be wise to continue conversations with the Kurds.

Conversations are always preferable to war but the Kurds should not rush into engagement with Damascus. They should bear in mind that Damascus needs them more than they need Damascus. They already have more of a state infrastructure than Damascus does. They already have a military which HTS does not. So, I think the Kurds have leverage over Damascus because they can help provide what the interim government wants and needs. We should not forget that the Kurds also have control over the natural resources that Damascus needs as well.

Conversation with Damascus is also in the Kurdish interest. This is because they need to keep Turkey from attacking them and engaging Damascus may help them with this. I am sure the United States and the State Department are also pressuring the Kurds to engage with Damascus in preparation for a potential withdrawal of US troops from Syria under the Trump administration.

Sarah: As you know, the State Department maintains a Rewards for Justice program. Mohammad al-Jolani’s name appeared prominently on this list until he took control of Syria. The $10 million bounty on his head has now been removed. What are your thoughts about that?

Diliman: I think the State Department was way too rushed to remove the bounty on Jolani. There was no proof to indicate that he should be removed from the list. There was a bounty on Jolani’s head for a reason. He is part of al-Qaeda. He was part of ISIS. He was inspired by the 9/11 attacks and the Palestinian Second Intifada. The United States imprisoned him for five years in Iraq. Once released, he entered Syria. He later founded HTS.

I think the United States acted prematurely in this case. They should have left it to the next administration and I am not sure why they acted so quickly. The Biden administration should not have touched this issue. Jolani took advantage of the transition period the US is in right now.

State Department representatives visited Damascus. I think Jolani persuaded them that the Trump administration may not remove the $10 million bounty on his head. I believe Damascus requested that the Biden administration lift the bounty immediately in exchange for A, B, and C. It is not clear what A, B, and C included.

In my personal opinion, that was not the Biden administration’s call to make. They should have left it to the next administration. HTS should not be removed from the terror list either. I know there are conversations about that right now. These conversations are happening not just in the United States, but in the UK and the EU as well.

Removing HTS from the list of terror organizations is very premature. Let them prove themselves. What is the rush? It may take years for HTS to prove that they will protect the rights of minorities, women and children. They should prove they will not become Afghanistan 2.0. I am not saying we should never remove HITS from the terror list. I am saying we should remove them after they prove themselves. We may see a different picture in four years when, and if, they hold elections.

To prove he is not a jihadist, Jolani should hold elections immediately. He is at the height of his popularity and should expect to win. He just rolled into Damascus. Assad is gone, the Syrian people are excited and they want change. He should anticipate the people would vote for him in free and fair elections.

HTS may lose the election if it waits four years and fails to prove itself to the people. At that point, they might not want to leave power and the Syrian people will be stuck with them. Ankara will continue to back them. This will facilitate a repeat of 2011, when Bashar al-Assad became a dictator. The difference is that this time there will be an Islamist authority in Damascus.

Sarah: How likely is it that either Recep Tayyip Erdoğan or Mohammad al-Jolani will set up military bases threatening the Kurds and the state of Israel?

Diliman: Oh, it is very likely. Right now, Syria is building its infrastructure and its economy. It is receiving aid from the Gulf countries, including Saudi Arabia. It is also demanding aid from the United States and the EU. At the same time, it is building its military. It’s building its military infrastructure and it is rebuilding its highways.

The Kurds control large swaths of Syria. 40% of Syria’s territory is under Kurdish control. As I mentioned, they have access to the Euphrates River and they also control Syria’s resources. For Damascus, northeast Syria is the last obstacle and last battle obstructing their full control over Syria. Turkey is all in as well.

For years, Turkey has made arguments that countries should take back their citizens from prisons in Syria. Turkey maintains these ISIS terrorists should be tried in their own countries. Turkey’s real intention, in this regard, is to dismantle the autonomous government in northeast Syria.

The Kurds have also requested that countries take back their ISIS citizens, but for different reasons. The Kurds maintain they do not have the resources to continue holding the ISIS prisoners while fighting both Turkey and Turkish-backed jihadist groups. For that reason, they want countries to take back their terrorists and hold them accountable in their home courts. So, the Kurds and the Turks have different reasons for promoting the return of ISIS prisoners to their countries of citizenship.

I think that once the military is up and running in Damascus, the focus will turn to northeast Syria. Hopefully that will not result in a battle, and that is why negotiations are critical. That is why the Kurds are negotiating with Damascus. Negotiation does not imply recognition of Damascus, or of Jolani. It means they are prepared to talk and see where it takes them. If diplomacy is in the Kurdish interest, it will lead the way.

Sarah: Diliman, can you describe the relationship between the state of Israel and the Kurds?

Diliman: Israel and the Kurds have a deep, historical relationship which has also served as a double-edged sword in modern times. This is largely because the Kurds are stateless and are secretive at times. It is sometimes not in their interest to share information given their precarious location and surroundings.

Salah al-Din al-Ayyubi’s doctor, Salah al-Din, was Jewish. Fast forward to Iraq in the 50s and the 60s, after the establishment of the state of Israel. During this time, the Kurds helped many Iraqi Jews to flee Iraq when they were being persecuted.

Right now, there is talk that conversations are happening between the Kurds in northeast Syria and Jerusalem. In addition to their historical ties, Israel and the Kurds have shared interests. Both are fighting terrorism. Israel is fighting Hezbollah, Hamas, Iran and Iran’s other proxies. These are also Kurdish adversaries. All of the adversaries Israel is fighting, have spoken out against the Kurds and against Kurdish independence. In 2017, Israel was the first and only country to recognize the results of the Kurdish independence referendum.

Israel’s foreign minister, Gideon Sa’ar, has been very vocal in supporting the Kurds. He advocates for the Kurds when speaking with leaders around the world. I think he is filling in the gap that the Kurds are not able to fill themselves because they do not have access to the international community. Israel is playing that role for them.

I think Israel can further enhance its relationship with the Kurds by continuing to utilize its leverage with the international community. Israel should also continue to press the case for the Kurds with President Trump and with the next administration. They should convince the new administration that it is critical for the US to maintain their presence in northeast Syria. That is huge. The Israelis may succeed in changing the mind of the next administration if they are considering withdrawing from Syria. I think Israel can do more to use its leverage to protect the Kurds. Israel can do this because, at the end of the day, they are a state and the Kurds are not.

The Kurds recognize that Israel has its own issues. They are aware Israel is fighting terrorism on multiple fronts. However, the Israelis do have more leverage on the world stage than the Kurds do. As such, I think it is critical for Israel to speak up on behalf of the Kurds with world leaders, on social media, and in the media.

Israel should also provide air support for northeast Syria. They should do this alongside the United States and should not have to do it alone. Co-ordinated air strikes would push Turkey back and signal to the Turks that the Kurds are untouchable. The Kurds are on the front lines fighting ISIS and Islamic terrorists. We have a shared interest in taking down jihadism in the Middle East, and the Kurds are leading this fight. They are performing a similar role to the one Israel is performing against Hamas, Hezbollah, and all the other terrorist organizations.

Sarah: Okay, so our dear friend, Dr. Harold Road mentioned the Erdoğan regime asked Jolani to send HTS troops to northeastern Syria to control the Syrian Kurds. It appears that Jolani responded that his forces are tired and already spread too thin. Is there a fissure between them that we in the West might be able to take advantage of?

Diliman: Well, Jolani has a decision to make. He is very close to Erdoğan and the Turkish government, and they were the first to recognize him. The Turkish government has given him their full support. He cannot afford to lose Ankara’s support. This is because Ankara is doing the work to remove HTS and Jolani from international terror lists. Ankara is also working to normalize ties between Damascus and other states and to establish diplomatic relations between them.

Turkey is lobbying on behalf of HTS in ways that HTS cannot do for itself. Turkish support is critical for HTS on the world stage. However, it will not help to convince the Syrian people that HTS stands for them rather than for Turkish ambitions. HTS is going to have to make a decision. They will need to decide whether they will continue to engage in diplomacy with the Kurds in northeast Syria. They need to determine whether to avoid being pushed into another conflict by Turkey. If they place their forces in northeast Syria, that means war. That is how the Kurds will interpret it and I think that is what Turkey is pushing for.

I think Jolani has to choose between Turkey and the Kurds. The right move would be for them to continue to engage the Kurds in peaceful negotiations. They should not allow Turkish talking points to lead their conversations with the Kurds. The United States has leverage in this situation as well and we need to use it. We should have leveraged Jolani’s removal from the terror list. We should have asked for much more in exchange for removing the $10 million bounty from Jolani’s head. We really did not demand anything concrete in exchange for removing it.

We should be using our leverage to demand that Jolani does not start another conflict with the Kurds. The Kurds are not be the stateless people they were under the Assad regime, and we should insist that minorities be given guaranteed rights. We have many leverage points and we should be demanding guarantees from Jolani rather than simply removing him from the terror list. We should be demanding that he does not invade northeast Syria and that he does not follow Turkey’s orders. We should ensure the Syrian Democratic Forces (SDF) are fully aware of Jolani’s actions and that they accept and agree with them. The SDF are American allies.

Sarah: Harold also wrote that Jolani’s people are talking about establishing a caliphate or re-emerging Sunni Islamic dynasty. There are rumors he wants to re-establish the Ottoman Empire with a capital in Istanbul or Ankara. Can we somehow use this towards our advantage?

Diliman: Yes, I think we can. A lot of what is happening in Syria can be advantageous for us if we are not naïve about it. Everything HTS is saying and parroting, is for Western consumption. They are saying everything we want to hear but reality will hit eventually. They are Islamists. Sharia law will be the law of the land, and the Kurds, Christians and Druze will not accept it. I think that is the reality. Sharia should not apply to them and it should not be the law of the land. However, the reality is that HTS is pushing Sharia law and it will likely be the winner here, whether we like it or not.

There is an alternative scenario. The rights of the minorities have to be guaranteed. That is why we should not remove HTS from the terror lists. That is why we should not disarm the Kurds, and that is why we should not withdraw our troops. Withdrawing American troops from northeast Syria will allow HTS and Turkey to move forces into northeast Syria. Disarming the minorities will allow HTS and Turkey to gain more territory. Even though we have leverage, the mainstream media has been taken in by the new improved and groomed Jolani. I think we should be fighting his talking points because they obviously do not represent reality.

Sarah: Exactly. Diliman. What is your view of Israel taking over Bashar al-Assad’s old military bases and the Syrian side of Mount Hermon?

Diliman: I think Israel is looking out for its national security interests. Israel is making military moves within a historical context. HTS has a long track record of targeting civilians and of human rights violations. HTS is also openly jihadist and Islamist. Jihadists and Islamists are not friendly towards Israel. That is the simple truth.

It was very smart of Israel to attack Syria’s military bases when Assad fell. It was a strategic move which benefited the Kurds as well as Israel. Those weapons would have been used against the Kurds as well as the Israelis. Now, HTS cannot start up the missile defense systems. They cannot use the jets. They cannot receive training from Turkey and use the jets against the Kurds or against Israel.

So, Israel’s moves are in support of its own national security interests. I think there will be negotiations down the road, but that remains to be seen. The tone and the pace that Israel has adopted with respect to Damascus, are the tone and pace the United States should be adopting. Israel is being realistic and honest. It is assessing the developments on the ground for what they are, not what we hope them to be. The Israelis recognize that the new Damascus government is composed of a bunch of random groups that have rolled into Damascus. They are Islamists and we need to be honest and patient, and not do anything prematurely with respect to their recognition.

Sarah: Do you think HTS will model itself after the new government in Afghanistan?

Diliman: I think it is too early to tell. Damascus wants HTS to be recognized as the legitimate government of Syria. This means Damascus is facing pressure that the Taliban in Afghanistan did not. Damascus has to say all the beautiful and nice things to convince the West they support minority rights. They need funding from the West, the EU and the Gulf states to get their infrastructure rebuilt.

The Taliban did not care about recognition from the West and others. They just wanted the United States out. They wanted the country to themselves and were not concerned about recognition from the West. So, the Taliban does not hide what it wants to do. It shows us what it is doing. As an example, there are no rights for women and children in Afghanistan and the Taliban is not hiding it.

HTS, on the other hand, is telling us what we want to hear. That said, they will eventually do something different on the ground. I think we just have to acknowledge that, and we should not rush to recognize them as a legitimate government. Engagement and conversations are fine but we need to use our leverage to demand they comply with our demands before we remove them from the terror list.

Sarah: The Kurds got a very raw deal with Sykes-Picot. There are Kurds living in Iran, Iraq, Turkey, and Syria. Do you think there will ever be an independent Kurdish state carved out in Syria, Iraq or Iran?

Diliman: If I did not think it was very possible, I would not be doing this work. First of all, I think the Kurds have a right to a state. The Sykes-Picot Agreement invented many new states in the Middle East. The Kurds in Syria are seeking autonomy and self-governance. This is a next step towards independence. That is why it is so critical for the United States, the European Union, and other countries to support them. It is a debt that France and the UK owe to the Kurds in Syria because they divided up the Middle East.

I do not think a Palestinian state will bring peace to the Middle East. I have always said that adding another Arab state to the region is unnecessary. There are nearly two-dozen Arab states in the Middle East already. Why can’t there be one Kurdish state? That is a plain and simple argument that you cannot really argue or disagree with. Arabs already have many states. Kurds do not even have one state yet. It does not make sense to refuse to accept a Kurdish state while working to add another Arab state. That does not make sense.

A Kurdish state would be pro-American and pro-Western. It would not have conflicts with any of its neighbors, including those that label the Kurds as their adversaries. These include Iran, Turkey, the Shiite militias, and the Islamists in Syria. I think the Kurds will be a peaceful neighbor to all, including Israel. A Kurdish state will benefit the Middle East. It is long past due for the Kurds to have a state of their own. They can govern themselves. They can live their lives freely.

A Kurdish state would not just serve the Kurds. Minorities live freely and are welcomed by the Kurds in both Iraq and in Syria. Churches are flourishing and are protected and provide an indication of what a Kurdish state would be like. Of course, the Kurds biggest adversaries are Iran and Turkey and HTS has supposedly been added to the list. We will deal with their threats when we get there.

Sarah: We also owe a tremendous debt of gratitude to the Kurds because of their valiant fight against ISIS. It is absolutely immoral for us to overlook this in the United States.

Diliman: Over 15,000 Kurds lost their lives in the fight against ISIS, and this fight is ongoing. ISIS is not yet defeated. We prefer that the ISIS threat remains in Syria rather than having it move to Europe or to the US. The New Orleans attack was inspired by the ISIS ideology.

We need to support our allies. That said, we need to hold them accountable if they aid terrorist organizations like ISIS. I am referring to Turkey. Turkey has aided ISIS. It has opened its borders to ISIS, and its airports to ISIS fighters. They have Turkish passports and ID cards. There are videos across social media showing Turkish military members with ISIS fighters. US officials have stated that they are aware of these associations. Turkey is our supposed ally and they are a member of NATO. We need to hold them accountable. They need to know there will be consequences if they continue to support jihadist and Islamist groups. They need to be aware that the United States will no longer overlook these types of activities.

Sarah: This is an incredibly important fight. I am very worried that Israel may be facing another front on the border with Syria. Recep Tayyip Erdoğan appears determined to re-establish the Ottoman empire. Diliman, you can certainly count on EMET to help the American Friends of Kurdistan.

Diliman: Absolutely.

Sarah: Please support the AFK at  https://www.americanfriendsofkurdistan.org/. It is a wonderful organization. Please also support EMET at https://emetonline.org/. Both organizations really depend on your support. Thank you so much, Diliman, it has been a pleasure to reunite with you once again.

Diliman: Likewise. Thank you, Sarah, and thank you for EMET for everything that you have done to promote the truth about the Middle East in general, and with respect to the Kurdish issue in particular. I appreciate everything, and I look forward to working with you some more on the Hill. Let’s tackle this together.

Sarah: We will tackle it together.

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